Hi, everyone. We're glad you're here. This is the Three Lesbians and a Pen podcast. Get ready to have your world rocked. As we dive into the wild and sometimes wacky world of self-publishing. We are three fabulous bestselling authors. I'm your host, Kimberly Todd with my best friends.

K. C. Luck

and Jamey Moody. 

Join us as we discuss the joys of writing, challenges of self-publishing, and anything else that tickles our fancy. 

Hey there, and welcome to Episode 43 of the Three Lesbians and a Pen podcast. I'm Kimberly Todd, and I'm here with my fabulous friends, KC Luck and Jamey Moody. Today we're talking about audiobooks, but before we start, how was your week, KC?

My week was good. It was interesting as well. We had an ice cream social not too long ago. Here in the park community where I live, it's a 55 plus community, and word got out that I am a published author, so I immediately went and took down my erotica because I did not want to shock these gray-haired nice ladies with some of my more graphic, episodes. Let's put it that way.

Girl.

So, I took down the Billionaires and they're on their own when they hit the sex scenes and the other books, there's nothing I can do about that. They're staying there. But then I decided, wow, I really wanna put those books back up there. So, KC Night has been born.

Oh wow.

N-I-G-H-T, and I've already rebranded the first Billionaires book with the new title, and it's on the cover, just the eBook version. But the exciting news is that I was so inspired about writing erotica under a new name that I've started another erotica book.

Yay.

Is it with the billionaires or different?

No. This is an idea.

Boo.

I know. Yeah. Sorry. Those Billionaires fans, I'm still struggling with that one, but I had an idea for quite a while and even started it a while back, and so I am running with that and it's going so well that I think I'll be able to release it in the middle of August. 

Wow. 

Under KC Night.

So, are you gonna do a whole different newsletter?

No, I'm not. I have no problem with my newsletter followers and my Facebook followers knowing I'm both people, because none of my new friends in the park follow me on that. Some of them don't even have internet, so I'm not really worried about it. But...

Here's a thought. What if, you know, you don't know what those little gray-haired people are doing. So...

Yeah. Well. 

Maybe. If you let 'em have one of those Billionaire books, be saying, let me, give you some pointers.

Oh. 

Oh my God. 

I mean, come on.

We got mostly widows and yeah. I just don't wanna have any heart attacks over my books.

Listen, I've heard that about those 55 plus communities. There's one around Austin and it's called Sun City. Instead of Sun City. They call it Sex City because... 

They're all sleeping with each other.

Yep. I'm just saying.

Oh my God. 

You never know.

You never know, but I'm not gonna risk it. So, KC Night is the person I'm gonna be promoting in my newsletter and stuff. When this comes out, it'll be news everywhere. So, I've already told my Patreon followers, they're the first to know, my newsletter people will find out the 1st of August, and then I'll post it on Facebook before the book comes out.

But you think you'll have the book done by the middle of August? 

Yeah. 'cause it was a good third done already. And erotica books, at least mine are on the shorter side, they're usually around 50,000 words. So, I'm already about halfway done ' cause I've been working on it and it's just flowing really well. So...

Because it's erotica.

You know, I just, I had trouble with Billionaires because of, not so much the sex part, but because some of the logistics, so being free to just write sex again has been really fun.

Too much story. Not enough sex. 

I love it. 

Exactly. So, I have a lot of sex and a little story.

Oh man, that's great. 

Can't wait to read it.

Yeah, thanks.

That's cool. Well, I don't have anything as exciting as that to share. Let me just say it's been hard to be Jamey Moody the last month because, dear listeners, the last time we chatted, my air conditioner had gone out, but I did get it fixed. So, this week as I was on my way home from work Thursday, my check engine light came on in my car.

Oh.

Yeah, so Friday morning I took it to the shop. And so here's a problem when you buy an import and you live in a small town, parts. They had to get a park. So Friday afternoon they called me, they said, yeah, we figured out what it is, and we've got the part found, and it won't be here till Tuesday. Maybe you'll get the car back Wednesday. So anyway. So, I rode my bike yesterday. No, I'm kidding. I did ride my bike for fun, so I've been kind of, stuck at the house, but it hasn't been bad. I mean, my sister would give me a ride if I needed it, but I mean, it hadn't been too bad. I've been doing writing and, getting a book ready to release.

Woohoo.

I finally have a release date for book three in the Wishing Star Series. It's called If I Had a Wish. And it's gonna come out on August the 26th. And this is my attempt at writing an ice queen.

Ooh.

You know, I told y'all I'd never written one and I kind of wanted to give it a try. So, it's an attempt. It's not ice queens like I think you're probably, used to seeing but you know, the fun part about ice queens is watching them melt. 

Yeah. 

That's the part that you get pretty much. But anyway, it was really fun to write and I think, my readers will love it because it's a little bit different so I'm excited about it. So, I'm working on getting that released. And then I'm also working on writing. I've gotten the 50,000 words on book four, and it's been fun. 

So, I was just gonna say you like the melting part, but I kinda like the bitchy part of the ice queens.

You know, this is an astronomy book too, because they're at an observatory and the opening scene is they're driving up a mountain and she's a tailgater and she wants to get around this person and she can't. So, yeah, so there's some bitchiness. So, there's a confrontation in the parking lot when they get to the observatory.

Nice. Good.

Yeah. And then there's a confrontation when the two of them finally meet in the observatory. So anyway, it was fun and I think my readers will like it.

Nice.

So, hey, let me ask y'all a question real quick about series because on my books, in my series, I always try to make it so if you don't wanna. You know, I'm sitting here trying to get people to read book three, and some people may be thinking, well, I won't know what's going on. Why would I pick up book three? But you do. Because I write 'em so that they can be a standalone. I know KC, you do that, not necessarily in the Darkness series, but Kimberly are yours like that? They need to read all, four?

Yeah, that's why I clearly labeled them in the title, even book one, book two, so they know that they should read because it's like a continuation. 

Cause I'm always afraid that, you know, people might not give the book a chance because those books individually by themselves are still good. And it's a great story and you'll still know who the people are. I try to make sure and introduce them, so that, you know, they were in another book, but you know who they are now. So I just wondered about that for y'all. 

Yeah, I do that with the Ruby Series. I try to make 'em standalone, but you just have to really market it that that's an opportunity for them to read. Just the one you’re releasing.

Yeah, that's what I've gotta do. Because book two didn't do so great, but it was during all of that Amazon hoopla with the rankings and everything. And I just, hate that for that book because it's good. And then book three is too. So anyway, I just wanted to see what y'all thought. And now Kimberly, what you been up to, gal?

Well, things in the Post-It department have gotten worse. I have resorted to the one-inch ones now because I ran outta room on my wall. The problem is they fall off everywhere. So...

No way.

I'm writing really tiny, tiny words. 

Oh, man. 

Oh, my Lord. And I was like, where did that scene go?

Oh, it's behind the trash can.

That's it. Oh my gosh. But, um, you were talking about, writing erotica and, you know, my books aren't, well, they, I guess they're a little bit naughty, but I just got to a scene that I was doing and it was like double the normal chapter, because writing the sex scenes are fun for me. I know a lot of people hate them, but I love 'em. And I just go through 'em like. Crazy. So, I just finished that of my work in progress, 

And then I wanted to blame my friend Jamey Moody, for my wife and I being locked in front of the yesterday. 

I know what know say. I know what you're gonna say. 

Because of The Hunting Wives, she tells me, you've gotta watch this, The Hunting Wives. So of course, we started watching it and the naughty girl in the show, Margot... yeah, she is, one of the lead characters in Billions. She was the wife and now she's in this and she's very, um, forward that's I'll say. 

Nice.

There's a lot of women on women sex in there. 

Ooh. 

These wives are having some fun.

They are. And halfway through it we looked at each other and we're like, it's kind of bad, but it's kind of good. So, you don't really know why you're watching it, but you do watch it. And we decided that there's probably gonna be a season two because the way it ended.

It better there. yeah. I know. Anyway, so we spent eight hours because of you in front of the TV yesterday, so I just wanna thank you.

I emailed a friend and I said, you know, those morally gray characters that people talk about sometime? I'm like, Margo has that down, but you need Margo in your life. 

That's all you want to watch is Margo. 

You can't not like her. I mean, yeah, and she's a Swedish actress. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, right in the beginning, listeners, I'll tell you, you're gonna see her naked and…

Holy boobs. 

She's 40, She's 47. What a body. 

 She's hot. 

OK. Suddenly I'm interested.

I'm telling you. Netflix. The Hunting Wives. Let me say this though. That is so funny about it too. The premise is a couple from New Jersey moves to, East Texas for work. They're in this small East Texas community. And I love some of the references, 'cause I think they're slapping Texas hard because the first thing they go to is a gun rally, you know, and things like that. And it's like, oh my fucking gosh. You know? Because a lot of Texans are like that. And then these wives are all uppity, I love their little Texas accents and all of this and everything, and then what they're doing behind the scenes. So yeah, it's a slap at Texas.

Yeah, my wife is from Texas and she said the same thing. She's like, She's like, I don't think Texas is gonna appreciate this too much. She's like, I'm on the fence right now. So, I just said let's just watch a little. Look at the naked boobs. Let's just watch it a little longer. 

Boobs. Texas boobs.

I get why're slapping at Texas, but it's East Texas, Kimberly, that's a lot different than Austin. 

Okay. And I also know if you guys heard that our friend KC just said she might be interested now, and I think it's because of her KC Night persona. 

Erotica.

Suddenly my head is there. Let me tell you. That's all I can think about. 

I mean these people are having sex with 

Yeah. So is my character in this book, so... 

There you go. go. 

So, you'll want to watch it.

Okay. 

But it has a story to it too.

Yeah, so's does my book. 

Yeah, it has. It has a story to it. And let me just tell you that East Texas women are brutal and ruthless. So, there you go. 

There you go—go Margot. Okay, so do we have any texts this week? 

Yes, we have one from CeeJay who hasn't used Canva or Book Brush, but does use Photoshop because she's an amateur photographer, which I thought was very interesting. And actually, on Facebook I have seen some pictures. 

Yes. When she emails me, she sends me photographs. They're beautiful. 

Oh, nice. Nice. But she did have a complaint. She wants to know what happened to the question of the week last time.

That would be my fault. 

So, we just forgot. Let's just put it that way. Okay. Let's call it, let's call it that.

Yeah, but I can follow it up in her email because she said, since you didn't have a question of the week, she said, I wanna comment on your, talking about your dilemma with editing. Remember I was talking about having to stop writing because you have to go do edits and things like that. And she says that happens to her all the time.

She, has three authors that she does developmental edits for, and she said she'll reach the mid novel that she's writing and they'll wanna slide in and need a little help. So, anyway, she understood, which I appreciated, or she'll have a photography job that comes up, so I appreciate that. She got my pain on that.

So, do we have anything from Instagram?

Yep. CeeJay also commented that she loved the Canva episode and she thought it was fun. And then we haven't heard from Evie in a while, but she's been catching up on our new episodes and she said, she especially likes when it's over 20 minutes because she does her walk and it's like the perfect way to immerse herself into fun.

And she also does, edits and audio. She can appreciate my pain and having to edit, which I appreciated that. Thank you very much. And so, this week we are talking about audiobooks and I'm very interested to ask you both a few questions of my own, since I don't make audiobooks yet. So, which one of you would like to start.

I'll go, I have done audiobooks three ways, and I think probably the only other way to have done it is to record it yourself. So, the first way, and I know, KC has done this too, is I went through a ACX and do what is called Royalty Share, where you go in and you choose a narrator and, you don't pay them anything upfront. They do the work and then you split any royalties that come in. You've done that, right?

I've actually had people audition. Have you ever had people audition?

Oh yeah. They audition, yeah. yeah. 

When you put it in there and everything, you know, you send it out for auditions and people audition.

Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. 'cause you can sometimes go in and actually pick a narrator you already have a relationship with, so, yeah. 

And how long do you wait before you get some auditions in to listen to? Is it a long time, or?

Mm. Mm-hmm. It's very fast, like within hours. And get a lot. I mean, like my billionaire's books got like 72 auditions.

Wow. Okay.

And, yeah it took a while. 

It's hard because they'll do like, you know, three to five minutes or something like that. And I think it's all of those... narrators are so good. They all have, you know, something that, I don't know. I just think, anyway...it’s hard.

Yeah. It can be hard. It can be hard. Yes. But some right away, you know, they're not a gonna be gonna fit, so yeah.

The other way I have done them is, I decided to switch from ACX because they are predominantly audible and you can't put your audiobooks out wide. So, I decided to go try Find a Way Voices, which is now Spotify. And your books go to all kinds of places.

They can go to libraries. There are all kinds of different audio book distributors. Granted they are a smaller piece of the market, but you'd be surprised how many of our audiobook listeners in the sapphic community use different sources besides Audible. So anyway, the way I did that, it's kind of the same process.

When I first started, you could send them out to get auditions and then you work with that, narrator and they send you the files and then you upload it. And Find a Way would distribute it. And I paid the narrator upfront. So, you agree on, a per hour price or a book price and you pay the narrator up front. 

Mm-hmm. 

Okay. That was one of my questions because I always heard, and I remember being at G-C-L-S a couple years ago, and one of the small publishers was speaking and they were saying, how expensive it is, to produce, an audio book. And I also know from other authors that some of the top narrators you have to pay about four grand.

Now, this isn't everybody, but if you want, one of the top narrators is about four grand upfront. So, what type of pricing have you guys seen? If you're paying for the narrator upfront?

You have to negotiate a per finished hour rate, and it depends on how long your books are. You know, that makes a lot of difference too.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Because my books aren't, generally long, but your V.A.M.P. Books are long. So it would take more. 

I've done it several different ways. On ACX, you can also pay the narrator upfront and then you don't share the royalties. I should have said that earlier. 'cause ACX isn't just royalty share, but I went to Find a Way because it distributed things widely and I've made more money on the books because, audiobooks are notorious for taking forever to pay off.

It can.

But, okay. I've done this several ways. I had one narrator that we agreed on a per finished hour rate, and I can't remember what it was. Let's say it was a hundred dollars. And so, we waited until she got the book done and let's say it was eight hours. So, I owed her $800 and then I get the files and Find a Way put it out there for me.

And another way I did it, I had a narrator that I've been working with and I had the Sloan Sister Series and I thought she was really good. And so we made a deal. I think it was a per book cost, I think each one of 'em, I wanna say was $500 or $750. I can't remember what it was that I paid upfront, then Find a Way, distributed. My first books that I did on ACX, my first series, and my first Christmas book that they still haven't paid off because I did royalty share with them. And those books are, you know, five, six years old.

You make more when you pay it off yourself and don't do royalty share. So if you do royalty share, you get 20% of the price people pay. And if you do it, so you pay it all up upfront and the person's no longer getting royalties, you get the whole 40%.

 But it still takes a long time for to be profitable. 

It can. 

Yeah. 

I've been thinking about it and when I'm ready to do it, I wanna do where I pay the person upfront all in one lot. 

Right. 

The other way to do it is through, a company that buys the book from you and they pay for all the production costs, and they pay to release it. They give you a few audio codes upfront when you're done, and you will eventually get royalties if it ever makes enough to pay them back for all of their costs, then you'll get some, and that, has never happened to me yet, and I've done several companies like that.

You used Tantor, right?

Uhuh. Yeah. And you've used Podium.

Yeah. I use Podium, but they don't buy the book from me. They gimme an advance against book, but I still own the book.

Yes. 

I didn't mean it that way, but they take care of everything. They buy the right to produce the audio book, I’ll put it that way.

Right. 

Yeah. They give you an advance, they give you a big advance and then they handle everything.

Yeah. Tantor did a three-book series for me and then a couple of standalones.

And how long do they have the rights for?

Seven years, I think. I'm not a hundred percent sure. I'd have to look at the contract again. 

Yeah. I don't know, after seven years, I guess I could take those books back from ACX because they're only on Audible. That's the only way that you can get 'em. I guess I could take them back and, put them wide.

Tantor reached out to me and they did my, second chance series and they got Tessa Staver to do it. They choose well on that one. They chose the, narrator and so she does a great job. She's done a lot of sapphic books. But then I reached out to them, I think it was on my, See You Next Month, my, vacation book. Actually, I had an narrator reach out to me and say, hey, I saw this book. Are you thinking about doing an audio book. And I'm like, it just costs so much and this book is long. 

And so, I reached out to Tantor and they were like, yeah, we're interested. So, I told them to use that person because she's the one that reached out to me. And so, she narrated the book. And so then this month, Until We Weren't a Story of Destiny and Faith just came out in audio and I had, heard from the narrator that did my Christmas book and I asked her, I said, Hey, do you work for Tantor sometimes? Because the narrators work for all of these different companies. And she did. And so, when Tantor wanted that book, Until We Weren't, I suggested April and she got the book. So, you can kind of have some relationships with some of these, narrators and get it done. 

I wanna make sure that people are aware that audiobooks can make you money. Yes, it takes a little while, sometimes a year for you to make back, depending on how much you paid for the book, but it is a nice revenue stream. Once those books start paying. So, I mean, there's, you don't have to do any work for them to start paying. It's not, something you had to put out any energy towards. It's just another version or method for people to get to your work. So it's nice to have audiobooks.

Yeah, they can make you money, but it takes a while. 

Mm-hmm. 

And it's just, you know, a little at a time.

But you reach more. That's just been my experience. I tell you what's interesting is when somebody reads your book and can't wait for the audio to come out and they listen to it too.

Buy both. 

That's friggin' awesome. Yeah.

That's what I was gonna say. A lot of people will buy the eBook, the print and the audio sometimes.

Yeah. And I think they give 'em deals like that, but I just think that's awesome. They wanna hear it again. Well, and I bet the story is a little bit different when you hear the narrator doing the voices. 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And depending on your narrator, if you get a narrator, like we talked about, some of the more expensive ones, especially, you gonna get people to come and listen to that book because they follow the narrator more than maybe even follow you.

I didn't even think of that. That's cool.

Mm-hmm. 

Oh yeah. Abby Craden.

Lori Prince is another one. Got a big following. 

Mm-hmm.

 A lot of people will listen to anything they put out just about in the sapphic world.

I know a lot of nonfiction authors, some of them will try to record or narrate on their own. Now, have you ever thought of doing that? Either one of you. I know I would never, but I'm just curious if you guys have ever thought of that? 

I think it's a lot harder than you think because you have to have equipment for one. You know, and I don't know that people would like to hear this little old accent for an entire book. 

Well, I know a couple authors who have done it. Georgia Beers is one of them. 

Yeah. And she did. 

She said it was hard. She actually rented space on a sound studio and did it all through that. So, it still had expense for her even though she did it herself. And I have seen her in, different interviews saying it was a challenge, especially the sex scenes in front of the audio people. She basically hid her behind a book and was like recording. So yeah, I've heard that. It's a very funny story.

She pressed her lips to...

Yeah. And then she sucked. Never mind.

Yeah. Their tongues tangled and wrestled... 

Yeah. 

Oh, my Lord. Okay.

That would be kind of wild though, if you could imagine. But these narrators are so talented. Most of 'em really are. I've had some great ones. I really have. 

They really bring your book to life.

I'm gonna bring up the hairy issue because I see it all the time when I log in to check my books and stuff, and I see that Amazon Beta Program, Virtual Voice, which I just, you know, I'm not gonna bash Amazon. I'm sure there's people that wanna do that. I personally am a creative person, so I would only hire illustrators and narrators, but that's a new thing that's out there. It'll be interesting to see how that advances and how the voices are. 'cause I know right now there's not that many AI voices to choose from and the price points are weird, and there's just a lot of different things that people are concerned about.

But think about it, if you're a new author trying to break into the space and you know how expensive audiobooks are, I mean, you're gonna have to put some money up front. Well, unless you do royalty share, I guess it's, attempting for them, I would think. Because from what I understand, from what I understand, these, AI voices are getting better and better. Because they're teaching them emotion and things like that. And I hate it. Don't get me wrong. I'm not gonna do it either. But I think it would be tempting for new authors that are trying to make a splash, you know? 

Yeah, I know of a few authors who have done it in our niche, and I would be really curious to talk to 'em and see what their sales are like. 

Yeah.

I know I've seen some, free audiobooks, and they're about 25 minutes long and they are on YouTube and they're not lesfic, they're mainstream like sci-fi, fantasy or it might be a military book. And the voice is male and very deep, and sounds fine to me. Like okay enough, I guess. 'cause I don't really listen to audiobooks either. But I can see in that instance for short things that are gonna be online that are not in our genre, you know, romance, I can't imagine using AI, but you know, each to his own.

You talking about listening to 'em? I do listen to audiobooks occasionally, but when I was having mine produced and I would have to listen to the track and approve it, and it would surprise me because she would be reading and I'd be going, I wrote that?

Oh, that was kind of good. I wrote that, so I'm just saying it. Okay, good. 

Because it did, I was like, oh, that is so sweet. Or, wow, that was a good line. 

I know.

It's like, I wrote that.

I know. You're like, wow, this book is really good.

Yeah. Okay, good. I'm glad to know that’s what you thought.

Yeah, it's a great… 

I thought I'm just being conceited, you know? But yeah, that does happen. So anyway, I have this new series, the Wishing Star series that I've been working on all this year is to appoint, I wanna do audiobooks or not, you know, I don't know if I'm gonna reach out to Tantor or what exactly I'm gonna try to do with those.

Mm-hmm.

What about you, KC? Are you going to this new KC Knight? Are you gonna get any of those in audio?

It will depend. I'll have to look at the numbers on what kind of erotica books are already out there on audio and see what kind of sales they have. You can kind of tell if something's selling well 'cause they have a lot of reviews.

Yeah. Well, Kimberly, what do you think is going to sway you to give audiobooks a chance? Would you do your series or would you do Mafia Girl, Maybe? First?

I don't know, honestly. For me it's price for sure. I wanna hear more authors saying that they're not just breaking even, that they're being very successful with their audiobooks. I hear a big mix. Like they either don't make their money back or they make a little bit. And for the time and energy for me, 'cause I have to write books, I don't write as fast as you ladies. So, I really need to focus on writing and not so much listening to an audio book that may or may not make sales for me. So that's my thought. 

Yeah, and sales are down. Sales are down with the huge explosion of more authors in our niche and because of AI voices making more books available in our niche. The sales for audiobooks are going down, so I have over 20 books in audio, and when I first put them out, and it was still pretty new, I was making well over a thousand dollars a month. But now I'm making less than 500. And sometimes a lot less. So, it's pretty sad.

Yeah. 

AI, yes, on the audiobooks, but on our books too, they keep taking our books, you know, the blurb and looking at the book and it into AI, trying to make the story a little bit different. Jae has been on it trying to catch these people, but I think that's kind of flooded our market too. And so that makes our book sales go down, not just our audiobook sales. So, it has been a trying time, I would say, in self-publishing right now.

Especially if you just retired.

 Bless. Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

But I'll say this, but I'll say this. I love writing these stories, and so I'm gonna keep doing it even if times are tough. 

Yep. And we have something exciting. Our next episode is gonna be celebrating one year of the podcast. Yay. So, we're looking forward to that. And, KC did we have a question?

Not so much a question, but for those listeners who have enjoyed us over the last year, we would love to hear some of your highlights and favorite moments, so send those in. 

So, that's it for this week. Thanks for listening. 

Thanks everyone. Talk to you next time.

I've got to remind everyone I'm an OWL because what does that stand for? Kimberly? Older, wiser, lesbian. Hoo Hoo... 

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to reach out to us, you can contact us by email at contact@threelesbiansandapen.com with the number three spelled out or on Instagram, Facebook and X at Three Lesbians and a Pen using the number three. And finally on our website, at threelesbiansandapen.com, we look forward to hearing from you, see you next week