Hi, everyone. We're glad you're here. This is the Three Lesbians and a Pen podcast. Get ready to have your world rocked. As we dive into the wild and sometimes wacky world of self-publishing. We are three fabulous bestselling authors. I'm your host, Kimberly Todd with my best friends.

K. C. Luck

and Jamey Moody. 

Join us as we discuss the joys of writing, challenges of self-publishing, and anything else that tickles our fancy. 

Hey there and welcome to episode 21 of the Three Lesbians and a Pen podcast. I'm Kimberly Todd. I'm here with my fabulous friends, KC Luck and Jamey Moody. Today we're talking about how to make your characters engaging, but before we start what's happening with everyone, KC,

Well, like last week, I am still on my little vacation and I am broadcasting today from Phoenix, Arizona. So, I made it all the way here to the Midwest ish. And tomorrow I'm going to Tucson. So, we're still moving. I still have another week of our road trip and it's been very exciting. So that's what I'm focusing on.

No writing happening whatsoever, but some ideas I have had some ideas and the romantasy at the top of the list. So, We'll see. 

Oh, really? Romantasy.

Yeah.

Oh, well, cool. So, I went to watch my, niece play rugby.

Oh, get out.

Ooh.

I know I don't know what kind of league you would call it or whatever. But she's kind of traveling over the state. It's a women's inclusive team and she had told them about my books. And so, they were very excited to meet me after the game, which I thought was kind of cool

Oh, that's

cool. 

There's a variety of people, 

How old is she? 

She is in her mid-thirties.

And, yeah, it was really fun, but man, someone described it as football without pads and I would have to agree with that, assessment. it was rough man.

No, thank you. 

 But it kind of made me want to be that person on the end that gets to run and score.

I told my sister; we were standing on the sidelines. I said, man, if I was playing this, I said, they wouldn't be catching me. I'd be running. Cause, cause it is rough, man. But anyway, it was a lot of fun. Yeah. So, if you've never caught a rugby game live, you might want to do 

that.

There's a plot for ya, Jamey. Come on, you can write a book about women's rugby.

Rugby, huh? Okay, but I have some exciting writing news. I got my book back from my editor and She did a wonderful job as she always does. Which we'll talk about a little bit because we're going to talk about characters and dialogue tags today because we had some issues with dialogue tags in this book Anyway, I got it back.

I've done most of the edits. So, I get to start today with the 

read through of it and hope to have it to my arc team probably the end of the week or next week. And I've just about decided on a release date.

I think 2 22 sounds pretty good. What do y'all think? 

Yeah. 

yeah. 

Yeah.

Yeah, that's like a Friday 2 22 25. Maybe it would be easy to remember?

Yeah? Yeah. 

So, that's what happened. How about you, Kimberly? How was your week?

Well, I was under the weather this week, so I just took it easy. And the excitement for me was getting ready to watch the Bills, which sadly they lost. 

Oh, no. 

It was such a good game 

was Though. I was glad it wasn't a slaughter, so that's fine, but I was kind of sad that they lost, but you know, it was fun to watch. And I've been getting a lot of editing done on my book, I don't know if you guys do this, but sometimes you read it the first time, and you're like, okay, and you find, you know, the words that you repeat or things like that.

And then all of a sudden you start reading paragraphs and you're like, wait, I could make that better. 

Oh,

I've been delving into that. I thought I was going to be done today, but I think I'll be spending a little more time on it, for now.

Yeah, 

So that's about it. So, KC, did we get any texts? Yes.

We did.

We got one 

text from Cheryl who's in Memphis and her character trait that she appreciates the most is to quote the butcher, the better. So there you go. Yes. And I kind of agree. I like really butch characters so I can get on board with that. And then we had a Facebook comment.

Dun, dun, dun. Jules, Jules said if she had to choose between a romantasy by me or Jamey or a collab book on dating. She wants the collab book. So we might have to collaborate on a book at some point here in the near future. Those are the texts and comments

The only email we got this week was another, Ask Us Anything question. 

And from Insta, Evie sent us an Ask Us Anything, and then I got a lot of yay for eggplant and a lot of no's. So the no's are winning so we're done with that topic now. Rotten people! Rotten people, 

I bet your eggplant was delicious.

It was fabulous.

Good.

So, moving on from eggplant, we're talking about how to make your characters engaging. KC, do you want to start?

Sure.

So yeah, let's talk about characters for me. Characters are what make the book. So, I learned early on when I first started writing that you can have a great plot, you have a great setting, but if your characters don't really carry it, if they're not really engaging, if they're not someone that people want to read about and follow along, they're not going to finish the book.

They're not going to stick with it. So yes, characters are key and I spend most of my time making sure they're the most robust part of the story and for me, a good character actually is to make them relatable. I think, you can have the most exciting, beautiful, experienced person in the world in your book.

But if the person can't relate to them a little bit, they can't find a similar flaw or something that they agree that they both want, then they're not going to be able to identify and they're not going to keep reading. So yeah, characters make or break the story.

I agree. I think they're my favorite part of the story. I love writing that part and things kind of revolve around them. So, I guess my books would be character driven most of my characters will have some part of me in them, but it's important that you've got to give them like you said some kind of flaw.

Mm

Or something you've got to show a way or something in them so that they grow over the entirety of the book. I mean, that's what your kind of doing. You've got to show growth

hmm

somehow for each character or for one of the main characters you've got to show attraction. Well for me you do because obviously I write romance You

That does help

Yeah, but sometimes I fashion my characters out of people I know or people I meet. How about you, Kimberly? Yeah, I find that for me to write a character, I have to be engaged with them myself as I'm writing them. So, the main, protagonist, obviously I want to like them if it's going to be one of the love interests for a romance. And then if it's a villain, I want to hate that person or, you know, strongly dislike them.

So, when I get comments back from readers in their reviews and they say something like, I love so and so so much or that girl was so annoying or God, I hated him. I know that I did my job because they actually had an emotion attached to a character that 

I made up. So, I think that's kind of my goal is besides the growth is to have them have some kind of attachment and connection to the character.

Right. That's interesting that you brought up reviews because on my characters, I give them very basic traits. I will mention hair color and eye color, and that's about it. Because I want my reader to be able to, use their own imagination on what these people look like, because if I gave them a hint and said, you know, this person looks like somebody, maybe some actress or something, what if they don't like that actress?

And then you're stuck. Now I did it in the book that I'm currently writing. I did mention that this girl looked like somebody. And, so we'll see how that goes. But I got a review on my, Christmas book that, said there just wasn't much detail in this book. I knew what color this person's hair was and that was it.

Well, that's intentional because of the reasons that I just gave you. I will say though, that's the only time I think I've ever gotten a review like that. But I just want people to know that's why I don't give you a whole lot of detail on them, unless it's important to the story. Unless their body type is important to the story, or if there's something wrong with them or something like that, then I might give you more detail on that.

But other than that, I'm gonna stick with hair color and I may, give you a hairstyle. and then eye color.

Yeah. And that's what I do too. the eye color, especially for me, if it's a romance, you know, when you're looking into her blue eyes or brown eyes or whatever, that's important that helps, I guess. I don't know. And also if I think the character needs to be described in a way I might describe their walk.

If they're very confident, maybe they're a powerful business woman. So I might describe something like that so that the reader gets a tone of this person. Powerful woman, but I don't go into what they look like as far as a celebrity or something like that. Cause I agree with you.

No, I like that tone is a good way to describe it, uh kind of what I do as well I don't really get into physical traits as much as a matter of fact I've actually had some readers email me and ask me what color is Jackie Scott's hair because Jackie's huge character and I honestly don't really know.

I think she's blonde, but I don't see her that way I see her as a flaming redhead, but I can't remember what I said. She was so I don't ever say

Right.

But yeah, I do make her confident by how she walks. She's got painted fingernails She has high heels so you get the whole sense that she's this powerful businesswoman with a really strong backbone but you don't really see necessarily what she looks like described on the page.

And I'll do little things with them. Like, she puts a lock of hair behind her ear or something like that. or maybe, they wear glasses or maybe it's some mannerism they have, or maybe the way they giggle. That the other, character just loves it. And so you mentioned things like that, which gives them a peek into the character, but it's not necessarily describing them, what they look like,

 Definitely little nuances. That's definitely what I put in mine too.

And also, strange things I have done a couple of times is if the person has like a nervous tic or something, like they scratched their cuff of their sleeve a lot or something like that to show that they're a nervous person or they have high anxiety and things like that. Other than just saying, I'm a nervous person, you start to see these weird tics that they have.

I think helps.

Yeah. Those are better characteristics than just saying, yep, he had a nervous tic or I guess in our cases, she would have a nervous tic and yeah, it's better to have an actual, thing that they're doing to represent that. That's more along the lines of, showing, not telling. So yeah, 

right. Or you talk about like butterflies in their stomach or things like that, 

or there's always along with show, not tell, or there's always the soreness from the day after having some great sex. The way you say that in a nice romantic way. I've used that recently, 

in a book, in

a

book and probably will again.

I couldn't walk. So, uh,

Wait, is this the sex episode again? 

What are we talking about here?

Oh, okay. Getting back on track here. I also like to make my characters consistent. So, I've read some books that I, have not finished because suddenly you'll have a character who's maybe in my case, Taylor Barnes in the darkness series Very strong personality shows very little emotion superhero kind of person If she suddenly started sobbing, you know like broke down and held her knees and started sobbing the reader would be like what the hell what is happening here?

This doesn't fit. So, you got to keep them in character So I have her make basically when she's pissed off chopping wood or something and that's how she expresses herself. But you got to keep your characters consistent. Otherwise, a reader will not stay convinced that they're real.

Yeah, and along those lines, I like to also include one of my characters to have like a snarky sense of humor. And so if all of a sudden that person became very serious, that would not mesh with their character,

Exactly. Mm hmm, but you need surprises too on that same vein. You can't have them so flat so vanilla that you know, there's no surprises around the corner. So going back to darkness series going back to Jackie every once in a while, I have her show real compassion and empathy which I hate to say it is not really in her traits necessarily, but it makes for a nice moment In the story to have your characters do something a little out of what they might normally do make them stretch a little bit. So that's also good to include.

Yeah, for me, duh, it's a romance, so yeah, we're going to have tender moments. but in, some cases they might show it with a soft caress or something like that, instead of saying it. If that isn't the type of character they are

hmm.

Yeah, 

Well, it's all part of their growth, right? So, what you were both were just saying is part of their growth that you want to put something in there. So, you see their arc. Right.

 Yeah, definitely. So, Jamey's stories. We've got tender moments and soreness after sex. Okay, cool. Now we got that nailed down

Well, let's add

Oh boy,

let's add side characters. OK.

 There you go. I love Yes 

I love it when you want to include a side character to make the book, a little more interesting. You add a side character and 

I love it at no, I love it when those side characters speak up.

And want their own book. Has that happened to y'all? Yes.

. Yes, haven't done anything with it, but yes.

I know I love it when that happens because actually when you're writing a series you kind of have to plan it anyway but then in the series that I'm currently writing. interestingly enough, the third book the character I had planned to write the third book about was nudged out by another one.

I shouldn't say nudged. I should say elbowed or thrown out.

And so, the whole third Yeah. So, the whole third book is going to be different than what I first envisioned, because this, one side character was a little louder than another one,

Mm hmm. hmm.

Which ironically is their personalities as well.

Yeah. Well, another thing when you have side characters, it actually can add to your primary characters by giving them subplots. Yeah. So, you can, suddenly have like a grandma, in there, you know, the cranky old grandma helps the main character realize something they're being stupid about or whatever.

Those are the best side characters and they really help your main character grow. 

like a voice of wisdom

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Well, and I think they need friends too. You got to have friends in there. So, they got to have somebody to talk to, or maybe a coworker or something like that.

yeah, you need the pages. You need the 

Yes, well, 

have characters to talk

but the side characters, you know can be interesting too and your main characters need them to

Yeah, they're always like their confidant and someone that they can confide in and discuss, you know What do I 

Mm hmm, 

kind of thing?

mm hmm,

So along with those side characters, I'll tell you some that are the best side characters you can have and that would be pets.

Mm hmm.

 Anytime I add, and usually it's a dog, sometimes it's a cat, because I'm more of a dog person than a cat, although I love cats too, I just have dogs. So, anytime I add a dog or a cat or a pet to a book, I get comments on it in the, reviews.

But you have to remember you have them all the way through the

book. Hello. Yeah. Occasionally I've gone back and had to fix the fact that I've probably left the cat home alone for three weeks. It's probably not very popular with the readers. So, I have to take him over to grandma's or something, but yeah. 

Well, you have horses in the Darkness series, 

hmm. Mm hm. We have horses. I have horses in a few books. Yeah, definitely. Mm 

hmm. 

You can have really strong characters be animals, for sure. 

Kimberly, you need to add some of your orchids since those are your pets. You need to add them to your books because did anyone see the beautiful orchids that she put on

Insta this week? 

Yes. ha 

I saw your 

ha ha 

you want, ladies. But, not only do I have orchids in several of my vampire books, but people get an education on them as well, because there's so many beautiful varieties, and I got a ton of nice feedback on my pet orchids. So there.

I love it.

agree. I think that's great. See, 

Yeah. 

got plants as side characters too. You just never know.

I'm throwing a fish into my next one. I'll show you guys. Yeah. I'm going to have a goldfish.

that's interesting.

Yeah. No, I'm not, but maybe we'll see my, romantasy with a goldfish on the spaceship or something. I guess spaceships would be science fiction. Anyway, I digress. I was just going to say another thing about characters is I always try to create characters and Kimberly kind of touched on this, I like to write characters that I like to read. So, when I do someone in a story, I try to make them. Maybe not so much even what I want to read, but maybe what I'd like to be like.

So again, going back to Darkness Falls Series, Taylor, I would love to be Taylor. Who's always so strong, confident, and always does the right thing at the right moment. And so those are the kinds of characters I like to create as well.

So, when you get upset, you go chop wood.

Nope. I'll throw a back out or something.

 What about what the characters say? I mentioned dialogue tags earlier, and that's, she said, and things like that, one thing for me is when you're writing dialogue, I hate to have to go back in a conversation and see who's saying what, because they don't put a dialogue tag in there.

So, I use them a little too frequently this time because she cut several out, but it, and it'll make me more aware in the last one. But does that ever happen to y'all? I mean, you get tired of reading them in a way, but in a way I don't, because I want to know which character is speaking in that particular conversation.

If I have a lot of characters in the scene, I'll do that. Or if the dialogue is followed by some kind of action. You know, she said as she went to the window and closed it or something like that. And I feel like I need that to break it up and move the people around. That's usually what I do. And I also learned like you, Jamey, my first book, I had a ton of dialogue tags and all kinds.

And then, I realized I didn't need them as much and just stayed with the regular said, replied, asked instead of these weird ones that I used to use.

hmm. Exclaimed. 

Hold it, hold it. I exclaim in mine. Sorry.

I do. I exclaim. I, I do said, 

hesitated, agreed. Well, 

a lot of times, a 

hmm. 

but from my editor, I mutter. Sometimes 

I comment. I state firmly.

Do you grumble?

I 

groan and 

Yeah, 

I 

groan and moan, yeah, of 

course. 

Yeah. 

even growled in this book.

Yeah, I growl occasionally. 

 I use said, almost 90 percent of the time I use the word said.

And I use them too much. I already know that. I've gotten some comments, not only from my editor who's very gentle when she cuts them out. Thank you, editor. But I have heard people say you don't have to use tags all the time on every single sentence, but I split my sentences a lot. I usually say something like fantastic comma.

She said, period. I love your goldfish. And so, I do those sentences all over the place. And I'm sure my editor is just like ready to blow her brains out at times, but yeah, that's my thing,

My favorite is when my editor, the first thing I open the document and it says, Kimberly, you use this word 197 times. Let's do something about that.

wow

that's after I thought I fixed it. Quote, fixed it.

 My editor is so sweet too like that. She'll put a little comment and she'll say she's raising her brows a lot in this chapter She smiled several times in this conversation.

How about giggling?

Oh, 

You know, I've gotten better with those, laughed, giggled, or chuckled. I've gotten a little bit 

better. She didn't get me on those this 

Mm hmm.

I hate the word giggled. So, I've rarely had my character giggle. I don't know why, but for some reason, giggling just doesn't seem very romantic to me. So, I just keep it out of the story. 

But I think it's playful. And when you want to show a playful side, I don't use it very often, but when I do, it's for a purpose to show a little playful side or something like that.

How about chuckled? 

All the time. I 

Mm-hmm. all the time. And if it's really funny, they laugh. Sometimes it's just a chuckle.

Sometimes it's a laugh. But yes, I use it.

I smirk. Do you smirk every character Smirk?

 I'm trying to remember which book it was because one of my art team said they sure were smirking a lot. And so, I noticed in the book that I'm writing, I don't think they've smirked maybe two times. So, won't you tell me?

Have you noticed though that someone does tell you and so you're aware of it for a couple books and then all of a sudden, you'll do a new book like a few months later or a year later and you're back to that crap all over again?

Yes.

Yes. Yes, yes. Okay. So, my early books, couple of my early books, I used "in her heart" that phrase a lot. And so, in her heart she felt that in her heart. And, which is a stupid sentence if you really think about it. I mean, come on. But we write romances. So anyway, 

 My mom's the one who it.

She is my proofreader and she's like, please stop using in her heart.

Whoa, that's great.

Thanks, thanks, mom!

Yeah. 

 I use a lot of, her heart was so full. 

It was overflowing with love.

bleh.

Why do you write romance? No wonder you'd like to write, sci fi stuff.

exactly. 

Mafia and Vampires, they're not saying that too much.

Mine are. 

In 

are so 

Yeah, 

full of love. 

I reached out and caressed her.

Mine are so full of love.

 man, what else?

Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah, I just thought we needed to add that the characters do talk. 

hmm, mm

One other thing that I try to do, or I don't try, it just happens, is I know we'll talk about this in another episode about world building, but I do think it's kind of fun when a character, learns, or does a profession that I personally am interested in. And then you watch the character learn, cause I'm learning and they learn and they go through it.

 I've got a bunch of feedback in Mafia Girl, Maybe? there's a lot of stuff about art and the art world, and how things are stored and sold and stuff like that. And people have written to me and told me that they really enjoyed that part of the character as well.

Mm hmm. I even, wrote a woman with a disability. She has impaired sight, and that took a lot of research, and I had to be very careful and have lots of people read it for me. But it was extremely interesting. Extremely interesting story to write because of that character. So yeah, if you add that in, that can make your book even more interesting to other people.

 Well, that's it for this week. Next week, we're going to be talking about what makes a great setting.

And the question for next week is going to be, where would your favorite novel be set? And it doesn't have to be real. I mean, if you were going to set a novel, what would you like to read about? So that way I can write my next book about it. So, if you don't mind, can you give me a heads up on where to set my next novel?

I'd appreciate it.

Okay, well, thanks everyone for listening. See you next week.

See you next week. Thanks.

Bye. 

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to reach out to us, you can contact us by email at contact@threelesbiansandapen.com with the number three spelled out or on Instagram, Facebook and X at Three Lesbians and a Pen using the number three. And finally on our website, at threelesbiansandapen.com, we look forward to hearing from you, see you